Creating Connection – An interview with Jakub Jakoubek & Emeline Rochefeuille

J'Em podcast

Creating connection – Now available as a podcast too!!

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The courage to be happy, The courage to be disliked

Find the books reccomended in this interview below:

The Courage To Be Disliked, by Ichiro Kishimi

Available in most book shops and at Amazon here.

And the sequal:

The Courage to be Happy, by Ichiro Kishimi

Also available in most book shops and on-line at Amazon here.

Alternatively buy both in one go here.

Interviewer: Hello, and welcome. Thank you for joining us.

Emeline: Thank you for inviting us.

Interviewer: That’s okay. And we’re just talking off screen now. But we’re talking, we met up on an involved West Coast Swing kind of social zoom call where we have a lot of fun. And you guys were sharing some really interesting stories and drawing some amazing pictures. I think, I have to say, Emeline, you won with that. But Jakub, I love that you always had a sunshine in your pitches…

Emeline: Have to feel better.

Interviewer: So, I was hoping we could just kind of have a chat and share some stories because you guys have a really interesting journey into dance, some of the things you’ve been exploring and locked down and some other stories that you shared. So, I was wondering if we could start with like, obviously, we’re still in lockdown, we’re very casual. You’ve done your first event just now for a while. I believe?

Emeline: Yes.

Interviewer: You’re looking very relaxed after it. Which is good. Just like “Yes, kind of. I still need some more sleep.” I was just wondering if you could let us know what lockdown is giving you a chance to explore and learn that maybe sometimes your schedule doesn’t allow you to do because you’re very dedicated to the dancing obviously?

Emeline: Actually, it’s funny because the fact that we’ve been to an event again after six months, really allowed me to point out what I’ve been able to do for the past six months without events. And for me, it’s really to have, it’s not let’s say healthy schedule, but it’s way easier when I’ve got the time to decide how I can shift my days the way I want to, in terms of like rest, body activities. In terms of soul food. Because, I decide what we cook, of course. Sleep. So, the importance of like the sleep that we usually don’t have during event.

But for me, it really gives me time to invest in activities on a really regular basis without having anything that comes in a way to stop it. So I started bouldering sings to Jakub, and I’m really addicted to it. So bouldering is like, climbing but without the rope.

Doing yoga. So, for like, I don’t know, three months in a row. I could do yoga really daily and have a strict schedule.

Invest in friends. Usually, we cannot really build. Not build strong relationship, but let’s say face to face interaction with faces.

So doing normal activities, like going into the park and have picnic or have game nights. Which usually is difficult because even if the weekend event is for days, when we come back, we’re usually tired because of the change in schedules. So we need time to rest or sleep or do laundry. And when our friends have also their work days, so it’s really hard to coordinate. So, this was really, really nice.

And also, plants. So, I’ve never had the living being that I need to take care of.

Interviewer: Oh, what kind of plan have you gone for?

Emeline: So, I’ve got some [inaudible03:43]. And they’re wonderful. I can look at them right now. I have [inaudible 03:51], two kinds. I have another one. I forgot the name but she’s beautiful. So to see them grow and have leaves, so it’s like some very small simple things, but that makes me happy.

Interviewer: Yes. And I really love this. I’ve been trying to grow vegetables this year and I really like being able to go out in your garden, see it grow and like go, “Oh, this is food. I can now eat it as well.” I’m very motivated by food. So, I can grow it and eat it. This is great.

Jakub: As an interesting social aspect of it for us, who, as Emeline said, weekend are usually for like abroad and then coming back to for few days while our friends are having different schedules. So I think for the past months, it’s been like rebalancing back to where I would like to have it, my social life. My personal, not dancing social life. So that was interesting. Besides all the activities that Emeline mentioned, gardening, yes. [Laughs]

Interviewer: So, what’s been your best crop? What’s been the best plants to grow?

Jakub: So far, I was successful with strawberries that they survived. A little bit of peace, but I missed them because I was month away. There is a high chance that I’m going to have tomatoes and peppers but I don’t know. They are kind of like, they have their own personalities. And they just say like, “One time I feel like ‘Yes, I’m going to go.’ The second time, they are like, ‘No, you know what? No I’m just going to die here.”

So, that’s an interesting process for me not only for the fruits but also for the part of observing, meditating, taking care of, accepting that there is only limited things that I can do for them. And they don’t speak to me, so I’d be have be like, “What do you want me for me?”

Interviewer: [laughs] I’ve heard I’ve heard some gardeners say actually their plans do speak to them. It’s just like a language you’ve got to learn.

Emeline: Yes.

Jakub: Yes. Not in the face of like talking a lot to them yet…

Interviewer: Okay, you are not there yet. I have got to mine.

Emeline: Yes.

Jakub: [laughs]

Emeline: Yes. I feel like as you said, like the observing part, because you learn how to understand their positioning. And you know when they’re not happy, when they’re happy. Yes, it’s an intuition. Like the connection as well.

Interviewer: I love that. When I coach, we quite often work with analogies. And I quite often use plants as an analogy, particularly if any, like leadership role. Because I think, we kind of quite often have a client that is dying in one location, and then you give it the right food and the right amount of sunlight and it absolutely flourishes. And yes, and you’re like, “Wow, I didn’t know.” And it’s just like, it’s not the plants fault. It’s just in the right place. It’s not receiving the right things. And I love using that analogy for us or for people we’re trying to encourage. Because you’re like, “Well, what does it need? What does this person need? What does this plant need?” And I had an example of that. I’m trying to grow [inaudible 07:26], they’re like, almost maybe going to give flowers so they might have fruit. But there was just a stick I used to support it. And the stick started growing, I thought it was dead. And it’s going, “No, I am going to grow.” I’m like” Okay. I don’t know what you are but we’ll see you grow.”


Interviewer: So yes, I love that analogy. I think slowing down is really good. And if you said you like carrying any learning for you, like moving into this new out that we have, where we get to decide our pace and our rhythm, what do you think are the biggest lessons for you from lockdown?

Jakub: I think I learned that sometimes I’m glad for that someone is deciding for me. Meaning, if there is a general excuse not to do something, I feel relieved because I don’t feel the pressure of “I should be doing something instead of I am told to not to do something, therefore I cannot…”So I found an interesting perspective to the freedom of choice for myself and how much freedom I’m actually craving for and how much of a freedom I’m not able to still use. If that makes sense?

Interviewer: Yes, so you kind of much easier for you when somebody else’s most boundary things that you’ve maybe don’t necessarily – it’s not in your top priority to invest time and energy in, but you feel maybe a duty to attend. And so, what I’m hearing is that when somebody else gives you a reason to not attend to it, you feel better. You don’t have any kind of guilt or decision-making difficulty.

Jakub: Yes. I found it really relaxing for myself, just because I had to just stay home and do almost meaning like inside activities. That limitation, that bubble that I found myself really comfortable in. I didn’t have the sea of options being like, anything in my life. So it was kind of interesting for me to feel it inside.

Interviewer: Yes. Interesting. And do you think you’re going to find a way to maybe make sure you’re not overwhelmed with choice like moving forward as things open up?

Jakub: I hope for that. I hope that this experience will not make me feel Just that I want to have restrictions on myself, I don’t think that this is what I crave for. But to be okay with the things I’m doing in general. Like in-comparing what I’m doing to what I should, what, had to do.

Interviewer: Yes. So, basically moving that shoot and going, “Where do I want to go?”

Jakub: Yes.

Interviewer: Oh, I like that. Thank you. And Emeline, do you have anything?

Emeline: For me I would say more that it made me realize how much I’m grateful for the human security that I have around. Because I feel like when I had all my traveling, going on every weekend, I always thought about myself as quite independent, not craving people overall. I had my close friends but I felt like oh, “I’m good with myself.” Like, all these self reliance or something like that. And so it’s the first time I’m really seeing with my closest friends in Berlin and also in communication with my closest friends outside. And it’s the first time that it’s not me who left but my friend went away.

Interviewer: Wow. So…

Emeline: Yes. Because we were living together for two years and a half, three years with Matilda, Tomal Clem. And in May, so he moved out. I mean, 10 minutes away, it’s nothing but still. Matilda had to go to Sweden for three months because of the situation and to work. And is the first time that I found myself left behind.

Interviewer: Yes.

Emeline: And even if I was sad, I was actually extremely grateful to realize how much the presence of certain people make my life what it is and the comfort that I have to travel. So it’s because I knew that I have this behind and that is there and secure that I can allow myself to have so much freedom and be away and still be fine in my head.

Interviewer: Yes, there is value of that connection there.

Emeline: Yes.

Jakub: The base…

Emeline: The base. Like my base community.

Interviewer: Yes.

Emeline: Outside of the dance community, outside of the even family community but like this core. So this, I think, was one of the biggest lessons for me. And I think because I had so much time to process things, to read, to get new inputs, to have maybe a new relationship that awakened different side that I didn’t know, I didn’t want to look at me, made me also step back from responsibility over people.

So we were talking about plans for instance. And I feel like because we decided actually to make them grow in a way so the responsibility is big but I wouldn’t treat human at all like this. Or I felt like even at events, as maybe teacher but I think everyone, we really feel responsible for people overall. That they enjoy the class, that they enjoy the dance with us, that we make them win the competition. Like it’s so much towards the outside and we so defining ourselves towards, “If I manage to do this, then I’m okay.” And step by step, I start to step back from that and say, “I know my responsibility and what I can do.” And I would just focus on that without…

Interviewer: If not for everything. Because, it’s like this is where I can effect change, this where I’m responsible, and then these other things I can be aware of, but they’re not on me?

Emeline: Yes. It’s like all this people’s task is not mine. I cannot touch that. And I think so you treat them for yourself and it’s removing a lot of pressure. So I would definitely take that and trying to apply it at every weekend because the charge of feeling responsible, especially as a pro, I feel that’s really big when you stepped in a weekend and as a public figure, in a way.

Interviewer: Yes. So, you’re being observed and you’re there to help people enjoy themselves and make sure they learn and a lot of other things. And yes, that must be a lot of pressure. So you think hopefully carrying this learning forwards, that will allow you to maybe keep some energy for you so that you don’t need some recovery time. Right?

Emeline: Yes. And just more okay with things overall.

Interviewer: Like let it go a little bit.

Emeline: Yes. It’s like cool.

Interviewer: Wow, this is some really deep reflections Thank you. Sounds like a transformative time, really.

Emeline: I guess so.

Jakub: I don’t know about this.

Emeline: I don’t know if it’s transformative or more that it finally got the time to do these things that we collected before together.

Interviewer: Okay, so maybe like reflective is more of a better term?

Jakub: Maybe, clearer,

Emeline: Clear. Yes.

Interviewer: Yes.

Jakub: When you have some stuff in the water and it just like with time it just go down. When we were all the time of troubles. I felt like it was always kind of like, moving and all the mud and everything was like in the water. Now, it’s like settling down slowly. And it’s like, “Oh, look at that. I didn’t know you were there. Hi.” Yes.

Interviewer: I like that. Yes. Wow. Thank you. Emeline. So, I was wondering if we can also like kind of move on from that and look at one of the things we talked about in Evolved that I really loved was kind of your showing a lot of like really deep reflection, a lot of clarity, a lot of self-awareness as well, which I think can be really hard for us to work on, particularly when we’re very busy. And like I know for me, it’s one of my big things that I’m trying to work on in lockdown is that self-reflection and self-awareness. What is it I actually need, growing things I think I need and that kind of thing? And so, I’m not terribly well trained or structured in… And I dance not only for the joy of it. So, I don’t have great aspiration to be amazing, but I always want to learn and improve. So for me, this is like my outlook on dance, I find it really interesting when you shared your view on how you like to dance, how you like to train, and like the creative process you go through for the open, which is possibly like maybe one of the biggest, possibly most stressful arenas you can perform in. Correct me, because I’ve only ever watched it on YouTube so… Yes. Would you like to share how you like to train and how you like to dance with others and that creative process for you?

Jakub: How we like to dance and train? I guess it’s really like, depending on the moment that’s been doing it. I think a lot of it comes from how we are between ourselves. Like if we are okay, then somehow the work is okay.

Interviewer: Yes.

Jakub: If we are not okay, then the work, it’s still done, but it takes way much more time, effort, energy and etc. So, for us, what work the best on the long term is to work on that and then the rest will come as a result of it eventually.

Emeline: I don’t want to put pressure on productivity.

Interviewer: Okay,

Jakub: Explain that please?

Emeline: Yes. I mean, sometimes I’m really a narrative of West Coast Swing piers like couples that put so much work. They would like train every day, work out, being like super strict in their work ethic. So even if they’re sick or even if they’re mad at each other, it’s like, they would forget, put it aside and like, yes. It’s like for instance, you open and you know, we got work, work, work, work work. And I am really a narrative because I think we’re incapable of doing that. I think we really, our priority is always to enjoy. Like the place where we enjoy what we’re doing and where it’s not forced or pressured by outsides deadlines or expectations. Because we really don’t work well when we feel it’s imposed to us. I think we thrive when we feel is coming from within and we’ve got really this desire to produce something and to create.

So usually when we create would be no more than two hours per day in a studio, even not every day. And we will really assess this. Like is the relationship good? Do I actually want to be in the studio today? Is my body actually already energized and in a good state or to happen? And if it’s not, then we just put an end to it and its okay tomorrow.

Interviewer: Okay. So how would you manage that, if like one of you is feeling really good, feeling really balanced, feeling really in tune and the other person just isn’t in the face for that training to be productive today? Like, how do you communicate that amongst each other?

Jakub: I think that depends on like, where we are. Like, if it’s really bad, my body and I cannot even like move almost because it’s not possible, then probably it’s not really meaningful to do that. But for all of us is down, like mentally or like cannot handle that particular moment well. And the other one has the energy to bring the other up or hold for the time being, then it’s a partnership, we on the same team. So I think we’re able to do for each other from time to time. If it’s not a huge, huge difference, then we can do that.

Interviewer: So, you just kind of communicate on a day and check in with each other and say, “This is where I’m at. Where are you at?” Is that kind of how it works?

Emeline: Yes. Well, I feel like because we’ve been living together for maybe three years, like working together, yes, three or four. I think now we don’t even need to talk.

Interviewer: You are just like… [Laughs] I love that. So, you’re in the flow with each other. It’s like nonverbal. You just look at each other.

Emeline: I feel like even sometimes we know even before the other that is not in the mood to do it.

Jakub: Yes. She knows…

Emeline: Yes. It’s always like that. But you feel like it’s – now like it’s so established that we read like the body language, like the energy levels, like the vibe, like the way you talk, like the way you answer, like even the way you dance.

Jakub: Yes.

Emeline: It’s very obvious. So, it’s making here because we have a sort of communication that does not need to be said, so yes, this is cool for the creation process. Sometimes I catch myself feeling pressure to be like other people. Whether I feel like Jakub is way more detached from that. So sometimes I start to feel pressure if I feel a lot of people are working daily so much. I start to feel guilty about not putting the work and I start to doubt…

Interviewer: So, you kind of get like self-comparison coming in. “Well, we are not doing this. We are not doing that…”

Emeline: “I am not doing that. I am not been professional; I should work more.” And so, then I tend to push us to do something to actually realize that it’s not the way we work.

Interviewer: So, you kind of test that boundary find out “No. That’s not the right thing for me.” And then you let it go again?

Emeline: No. I’m now really in peace with that. Before it was harder because I really wanted maybe to be – I was projecting an ideal. And I was thinking that I should be that ideal instead of assessing “What’s there? What works for us?”

Interviewer: I love hearing that because I think, it’s really easy or whatever level you are to do that and for me to look and go, Okay, so I’m trying to balance a job and trying to create this website and… And I haven’t done my kitchen practice and haven’t done that. How many hours a day you’re practicing and…, In a nice way, for me, this is a hobby, and I like having a workout, I like having q routine. But yes, it’s really easy to go “Well. I haven’t done enough. Other people practice way more than I do.” And that comes in. And so, I really like hearing that and how you kind of realize, “Well, this is what works for us.” I think it’s so easy to look at other people and you only see what’s on the outside of what they’re projecting as well, unless you know them very well. And so, it’s easy to draw conclusions that aren’t really the truth, I guess.

Jakub: I’m glad to hear you talking about wellness and mindsets and all that. I call them like a soft part of how we can work on ourselves because I think that’s generally like, not seems seen overall. And when we say “How much do you work on yourself?” Immediately we come to like, physical practice. At least that’s like how I was set in my, like, past. “So how much physical practice do you do?” But for me that like, in life, it’s not just about the physical…

Emeline: Action. Yes.

Jakub: That’s like, it also needs the other part like the, as is that said, the soft skills, the mindset, the how we are, what we’re thinking of about, like all that. And I think we are trying to balance the work. So, it seems like we work less compared to the others, if I have any compression. But we put the rest of the work into the soft skills between us. And I think that balance is very important for me to have in a partnership, in relationship, in general. So..

Emeline: That’s true.

Interviewer: And I love that. Because I think I ended up in like quite a few existential like conversations with groups of coaches, with existentialist and like I love there’s like two o’clock in the afternoon. Talk about for hours about meaning of life and where we fit into it and all that kind of thing. But so often dance of one form or another is used as an analogy for connection to something bigger than yourself but also deeply to yourself. And connection to this wider purpose. So, there’s so many analogies you can pull when you’re like, connecting to the music. How long ago was it written? What were the creators of that music thinking? And then the people who are playing it thinking? And then your partner as well? And of course, I guess if you’re performing like, the audience, and their feeling and their energy?

And so, I love that because I think we miss it. The skill is so important. And I guess like, I think this and I’m like, “Or is it just because I’m a novice learner, you know very much skill?” And I’m thinking this and kind of giving myself that excuse of, “Oh, well, the skill is, you know, that’s part of it.” But I love hearing that because I think, yes, when we have these conversations outside, it’s amazing. And yet we come into the world with West Coast Swing. And it’s understandably, a lot of focus on physical skill. But that’s what we really hope to bring in. It’s like, it’s also focused on knowing me, knowing my body, knowing my mind, knowing my energy and my spirit as well. So,

Emeline: When we create, I think maybe like the biggest part is in our mind. Because even in the studio, we would listen to this song ton and ton of times even just in our mind and trying to picture move, trying to picture dynamics. So, when we actually get in a studio, it’s like the work is already done in a way…

Jakub: Or the behind scenes work, the unseen work that it doesn’t really usually count when you say like, “How many hours do practice?” Like, behind scenes is being done like for us by passion, hours and hours of listening, thinking, producing our art, talking, discussing.

Emeline: And also because of the goal. Because I feel like our goal for instance, when it comes to the open is more to show people a part of us. Of course, it’s amazing when you place, like you don’t obviously spill on itor…

Interviewer: Yes. You’re not like, “Oh, man, I wish I hadn’t played.”


Emeline: Yes. You are happy when you get recognition of any sort, like it’s human. But I feel like our priority is always to be very true to ourselves and to actually sell in a way or sell or to show or present or inspired through who we are not who people expect us to be. Like that same principle about things coming from within and not decided from the outside. And this like remove a lot of pressure, whether it’s like the creative process or even when we have to perform it or receiving a feedback on it, yes, it makes it…

Jakub:It makes it more like you are okay with whatever you’re going to put on dance. And it doesn’t have to be just routine performance. I think it goes to the extent of many, many things in dancing slash life. So…

Emeline: And dancing was when you said you know dancing on the social floor or even competition. Our focus is similar. Like my focus for me is to feel. So if I dance is because of like what it provides me within. Like the body conversation, like the joy of body sensations and then to the extent what it brings you like emotionally or spiritually when you get to those states.

Interviewer: Yes.

Emeline: So, I don’t have any now. It was not like that before. It was really like a road. Now I felt like I’ve reached a point where I don’t have expectations on the product. What it should look like or what it should feel. So, it allow me to be, not always but the maximum they can like really present and see that what is there is the right thing. Not, “Oh, what is there should have been different.”

Interviewer: Yes. It’s not judgment on it. It’s allowing it to be. I like that. Yes. You said that was like a road to getting maximum. People want to be there but then you have so many other thoughts coming in, so many judgments coming in. If you had like one bit of advice for someone who’s like, “I want to be there, but I just honestly…” I get it. Like, I get it quite a lot. Particularly if they have a period of events for whatever reason, and they come back and then like, all of the little like, “Ah, you don’t know what you’re doing and you’re…” And part of that is because I want my partner to enjoy it right? Whatever level they are, I want to be able to have fun and connection and expression. Sometimes it feels like learning a language and you’re listening in a room and you know, cognitively, you understand something, you’re not able to acquire yet. It’s quite frustrating sometimes. And as for me, where’s my frustration comes in. I got let go of it. So what do you think would be like a really good way or a bit of advice for people who want to move from that place but aren’t sure how yet? Like how do I get to places being present? How do we get to a place of letting go of judgment and simply being with the movement?

Jakub: Simple advice.

Emeline: First, I know it’s hard. I think first is to think that you don’t have to be a specific thing to feel that you have a spot somewhere. Like dance community or other community or any sometimes like sports you get in or I feel like our big fear is to not belong, to not be accepted. Like to not feel that you’re part of something and you’re there and you’re secure. And I think with West Coast Swing because it is a competitive dance…

Jakub: As well.

Emeline: As well. Like I think it’s starting to be associated to thriving, like being someone specific, being someone unique on style that you know you’re not replaceable. Being like so good that the people would want to dance with you and you know you would be… So I think we start to be so scared of not being okay the way we are. That is when the expectation comes in and like the judgment. And when you realize that people around you, actually they are your friends like in a way, like even if there’s competition, usually the competition is with yourself in the way that you would judge yourself. You would not really judge others.

People want to see you doing good on this. They stuck in the “Me winning, you losing” kind of process mind. So, when I started to realize that if you fall, if you miss a break or anything, people will forget, they don’t care. Like the person that actually care is you and you are eating yourself inside. But people around, like they don’t care. Because everyone in the way care about themselves.

Interviewer: Yes.

Emeline: Not in a bad way.

Interviewer: Yes.

Emeline: So, this I felt like remove some pressure and then to also not feel responsible for people`s bad feelings.

Interviewer: Okay, so you’re not responsible for what the other person receives that movement, and it’s a negative experience for them or maybe not such a positive experience for them?

Emeline: Yes. It’s like their call. So, If we have a dance, I think what I can do is to enjoy myself. To feel being a present, being really to share with that person. But this is where it stop. Let person enjoy it. If the person actually take it as a competition, if the person wants to be seen by others and admired, it’s not my call. It’s theirs.

Interviewer: Yes.

Emeline: Or dance, if they thought, yes, it’s their call.

Interviewer: Yes. So, you’re just responsible for you. And I guess that’s going a little bit back to what you were saying about your learnings with events is that you know what you’re responsible for and what you’re not. And that gives you permission to be okay, if that person is upset or if they’re not. Of course, you’re not the one that cause it, but if that’s how you receive it, that’s okay.

Emeline: And to learn how to be okay with yourself. Stop comparing to that ideal. It’s good to have an idea because it helps to thrive or to take step forward, but not to take that ideal has, “If I don’t reach that then it’s the end or it’s not okay.” But then to take it more as “Oh amazing.” Like it showed me the road and okay, being on the road and enjoying it. Yes.

Interviewer: Yes. Martha, thank you. Some really deep sharing there.

Emeline: I am reading a book right now. It was recommended, like from one of my best friend, Lucas Cobinaire and it’s called “The Courage To Be Disliked.” By Isshie O, something. And I would recommend to everyone to read that book,

Interviewer: “A Courage to Be Disliked.” Okay, I’ll try and find that link or if you have a link to it, I’ll try to put it up for people.

Emeline: Yes.

Interviewer: To try and put out resources, I’m also working on like a book review for the site. But I’mbeen quite slow with my reading recently, so audible has been my friend and to try and help with that. And yes, we’ll put that out for people to learn and discover. And so, I’m aware we like eating into a time. Is it okay if we take like maybe a few more minutes and just discuss a little bit about the process of going through the open and the story you shared last time, Jakub with your back. Would that be okay?

Jakub: Yes.

Interviewer: Yes. So, I think because you mentioned that sometimes you can feel your emotions both physically, like maybe cognitively you’re not aware of them, but your body will make you aware of them. And I think we know a little bit about that when we go, “Oh, I’ve got a tension headache, or I’m really stressed. My shoulders are tight.” We don’t really think of like, where are we holding our emotions in the body is so much. Would you mind sharing that story?

Jakub: So, it was between prelims and finals in classic on Saturday evening, in the afternoon. And itwas a result of like a long period events that are happening in my life. And I think that what it showed to me was that until a certain time, I’m able to deal with upcoming emotions ifI catch them properly and ifI clean my sheets properly, day by day, week by week. But then, if I don’t clean my dishes on a regular basis, then it just piles up and ends up being too much to handle. And I think that’s where my body kicks in and says like “We’re going to have to make you feel differently than just, because you cannot see it anymore in your brain, you have to feel it physically somewhere in your body.

And that’s what’s happened in that particular moment. I don’t know what was the reason or the timing there. It was really like inconvenience, but I think I cannot choose what is going to happen.

Interviewer: I guess if you’ve not been cleaning your dishes for a while, then your body’s just going to go, “Hey, you needs to realize this now.”

Jakub: Don’t talk about make sense in a way that I was requiring. I was asking my buddy to do some work for me, which is a performance of our routine. And I think I wasn’t completely paying attention to my body in previous events, so it just end up being like, “This is my limit.” My body told me. Like “This is where we are going. And you’re going to have to stay here and pay attention to me otherwise we don’t work.”

And it took a work of two people on me and it felt like those dishes were like kind of like compressed to like a small piece of, I don’t know, paisible. And it just needed attention and presence and a huge release in the moment. Realization, forgiveness acceptance like all those like high words for me at least. And then it just passed, it went away. It had some resignations. So, after the treatment, it was partial massage, partial like energy work on me. And when it released, I felt that my body was first of all shaking, I was in a kind of like shaky moods, I felt that it took a lot of heat for me. So, I felt cold inside my body. And it just needed some time to digest. So, they work for me, then I had some time of rest, and then we went to dance finals afterwards.

Interviewer: So, just to recap. So, you’re like between two performances and your body’s like going, “Hey, you’re not doing the next one unless you pay me some attention.” And that took a lot of time. But that must have been same but with the high ideals with forgiveness and presence and all these things, but to not be able like “I can’t not know because next performance is coming and actually we can put that afterwards.

Like was there a process you have go through going, or was it just if your body would not function anymore. And so you have to go, “Okay, I’m going to give you the time you need now so that maybe I can go back on or maybe I can walk in a minute because walking is kind of important to me?”

Jakub: Well, it was not like a severe, not walking type of pain. It was just so limiting that. I think if it wasn’t treated well, I would not be able to dance or breathe properly [inaudible 41:34] the pain, meaning. And I want to say something before I said that about it. Was because of 30 minutes before the performance?

Emeline: Yes. It showed up 30 minutes before the performance so we were about to go down.

Jakub: So, what I wanted to say just came back to my memory. Was that I had to just check on myself what is important in that moment? And it was kind of in the middle of our – we know that the open is important for us, but on the long term what is more important than the open. And I had to just realize that it is my core, my buddy. And Emm released a lot of pressure from me just because she said, “Well, if you don’t feel okay dancing, we are not dancing the finals and I’m okay with that” She said. So that was like, “Alright, that that’s the moment for me.” I need to hear that. And I think it helped the process to to take away the pressure from “We have to do that.”

Interviewer: I think for me that really shows the strength of this relationship that you’ve been building up of understanding each other of knowing what each other needs. Because to be that post performance and to be able to give your partner that permission is that “Well, you know what? If you’re not okay, that’s fine.” Like there’s no guilt. There’s no shame. There’s no should in there. There’s just, “Let’s do what you need to do.” And I think that shows just how strong your relationship is as a dance partnership, as friends, as well as humans. And for you like how easy Emeline was that for you to give?

Emeline: Super easy. Like, as I said, like our goal is not placing per se, to show our art and showing our art than we can do in a lot of different places. The open is just amazing scene for that because everybody’s watching. And at that stage we already performed so people already seen our new piece. So in a way, it’s an honor to do it again, and especially our peers and the moment is very powerful. But it’s not a need. For me our work was done. Like we created something, we perform we show it to people. So, the finals is just an ice on the cake.

Interviewer: Yes. it’s nice.

Emeline: I feel like it is not so attractive.

Interviewer: Icing on the cake or cherry on the top. I know what you mean. It’s okay. I get you.

Emeline: It was just yes, a cherry on the cake. Actually, I was extremely happy that he was going through that process.

Jakub: Okay.

Interviewer: And it’s like being massage and like the pain.

Emeline: I told him. Because I knew the dishes is piled.

Interviewer: Yes. Okay.

Emeline: The freaking dishes is piled. And when he started to have the pain and when they started to work on him, and I could see that he was allowing the release, I was so happy. Because I’m like “Finally.”

Interviewer: [laughs]

Emeline: So, this for me was more priority than the other. So, if this would have meant not being in the shape too dance, fine.

Interviewer: Yes. Oh, thank you for sharing that. Because I think it’s really important and knowing what like going back to your goals, going back to your connection and your relationship with yourself and with each other. I love hearing that and just remembering what is important? What is really important to you. And it’s a beautiful story. Thank you for sharing. I hope that your dishes don’t pile up again like that. I hope you don’t have another moment where you need that. Fingers crossed to…

Jakub: And I’m really appreciated that I had this experience I never had before. So, I don’t shine a bad light on it or I’m not against having that sensation again. I see it as a form of communication which I was just like hurting within myself. So that was a good reminder. Anyway…

Emeline: And its how people process. So, for me because I think and even too attuned to my state. Do I know when something started to bother me? I know already. And I see the process going from A to Z. And usually I need to spill it out. Like I need to talk to process.

Interviewer: Yes.

Emeline: Yes.

Interviewer: It’s like, “Blah blah blah.” Okay, so, because my partner’s, like a very silent thinker. And sometimes I’ll talk I’m like, “Do you want to talk?” He’s like “No.”

Emeline: Yes. So…

Jakub: Hello.

Interviewer: Yes. He doesn’t understand my need to talk quite so much. He listens very kind of way.

Emeline: Different process. But like I know is a chewer and I usually know that when his body starts to talk in any way, so you know sore throat? Like sentence, is like because there are some things you know inside. So, I think it depends on how you work. Sometimes like body pain can be like try to actually look what it’s telling you. Or it can be mind pain from the start and…

Interviewer: Yes. Well, thank you. So, I think I’ve taken enough of your time I’m loving this conversation. I could go on for forever, but we need to go on for days. And for me, it’s like, is there anything that you guys like to share that you don’t think we’ve covered or that you particularly like people to hear on this journey of self-discovery, on this journey of understanding them and that dance? Like is there anything you would like us to part with?

Jakub: I think if it was me listening to any kind of like self well-being podcast or interview, if I’m going through the process, I would like to work on myself, but I don’t know kind of how. I’m kind of lost in it. I would like to hear that I’m not alone in this. And many people, I think are trying to do the same thing. And many people struggle. So, the struggle is a part of the process. And that’s not a reason to stop.

Interviewer: Okay, so keep going no matter what.

Emeline: Yes.

Interviewer: [inaudible 48:52]

Jakub: Who was it? One of like, thinkers… I think I read a sentence from the person. It’s like I am riding a bicycle. And I like the metaphor. Like, just in order to keep the balance you have to keep on pedaling. That’s for me like, “Okay, that makes sense.” Like no matter how this is done, you still have to keep on pedaling just like that.

Emeline: And me if I wanted to say something, I think it would be especially towards the current situation. Because we’re a bit lost in the areas and how it will affect the community and stuff. And I can see a lot of point fingers everywhere. That “What you do is wrong.” Like “You’re not responsible.” Like, “You should blame yourself.” Like there’s a lot of outside, outside, outside.

I would tell people like the same thing, everyone is responsible for themselves. If you’re not happy about the situation, you’re the only one who can enforce your own boundaries and act on yourself. You don’t have to point fingers and make people feel bad about themselves and shame them because they’re not helping you to reach something that you want to reach. Or something like that. Because they feel like everyone is adult. Everyone takes responsibility for their own good. Of course, we need to think about others and be empathic and know maybe how our action can have impact in a way. But we’re still responsible for ourselves. So, yes, I would maybe tell people to pay attention in their talk or how they’re accused people or maybe how they blame or to turn the thing inward. You know, in themselves, I guess from the well-being thing, but…

Interviewer: I think it is. Because there’s so many aspects to it. And one of the things we’re trying to launch onto the website is like the eight dimensions of wellness and some our own mindset and our own physical well-being. And others are environmental. So, the how you’re interacting with your environment and socially with other people, right? I think for me, when we’re talking about Corona, it’s highlighted, we’re all on the same rock, we’re all human beings, we are all ultimately breathing the same air, relying on the same water source. Ultimately, in really big scheme of things. And that one person’s actions, you can see how it affects. Because that’s why we wear the masks, right? This is why we’ve had travel restrictions. Because that’s my social responsibility to look up to me and to look after other people.

So I think that’s a beautiful analogy for saying, “If you’re not comfortable with something, that’s okay, you don’t need to be. But maybe you don’t judge or blame others.” And I guess possibly what I’m hearing in that is understanding how you would like to express it. So, if you believe it might not be the best thing for the community, you can voice, have it considered, XYZ. Rather than going “This is wrong, you shouldn’t do it. You’re a bad person.” And like kind of escalating on that level where we’re kind of going “For me, I won’t be attending or for me, I prefer not to do this. And would you consider this for the future?” So, it’s low kind of communication.

Emeline: Because it’s easy to judge especially when you’re scared and when you’re confused. And yes, it’s easy to point outside and judge but everyone has their own angle of you? There is no right or wrong angles. It’s like everyone has their own angle.

Interviewer: That’s beautiful. Thank you both so much. I really enjoyed this conversation.

Emeline: Anytime. Thank you.

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